You must be a Libra

During my mid-teens...

 ...amongst my circle of friends, there were quite a few albums knocking around that were freely lent and borrowed, in spite of them being treasured possessions: the purchase of a full price vinyl album represented a fair chunk of disposable cash to a 16 year old back then. Looking back, many of these records were pretty normal fare for that time, so 1967 saw Sgt Pepper, Are You Experienced, Safe as Milk, Cheap Thrills, Disraeli Gears and all the usual suspects being shared to death - and gradually getting more scratched! 

However, there was one album released that year which seemed to inhabit a slightly more exotic niche and have a cachet all of its own, with its mix of poetry, rock and strange electronic sounds, and all housed in a very trippy looking sleeve.

It was this.

"Cosmic Sounds" by The Zodiac. 

Or was it "The Zodiac" by Cosmic Sounds? 

Or "The Zodiac with Cosmic Sounds"? 

Or even "The Zodiac: Cosmic Sounds - Celestial Counterpoint with Words and Music"?

It wasn't entirely clear.

Encouraged by the success of the Doors' debut album, Elektra label boss Jac Holzman hired Alex Hassilev of early 1960s folk group The Limeliters to produce an album of psychedelic music. Hassilev then asked Mort Garson - his partner in a production company - to write the music, with the "lyrics" provided by Jacques Wilson. 

So far, it sounds like a recipe for an instant psychedelic album and, indeed, the musicians involved reinforce this impression. There was Hal Blaine on drums, Carol Kaye on bass and Mike Melvoin on keys - all Wrecking Crew session players. Bud Shank also featured.

However, what really set this cash-in apart from the rest was the inclusion of Paul Beaver on one of the earliest Moog synthesisers. Although Beaver is the only credited synth player, it's highly likely that his long time collaborator Bernie Krause also played on the Zodiac album. Holzman had introduced Beaver to Krause and the pair pooled their money together to buy a Moog. "Cosmic Sounds" is regarded as the first rock album to feature the revolutionary instrument. 

  

 Beaver & Krause

Also appearing on the album are uncredited electric guitar (any bets on Tommy Tedesco being one of the guitarists?), sitar (naturally) and tablas - the last played by ace percussionist Emil Richards, who also played on a few Zappa albums.

Lumpy Gravy?

There are also some passages of original poetry delivered in a very manly baritone by Cyrus Faryar, a singer who worked on the fringes of the Spector organisation, when he formed the Modern Folk Quartet, before eventually ending up producing the Firesign Theatre, amongst other things. Faryar's an interesting character who's played with all sorts of people - including the late Dave Crosby - during a long and distinguished career.

I hadn't heard the album for a very long time - I'm guessing 50+ years - until I managed to snag a copy a few days ago. I was really surprised by how much of it I remembered, but was getting reacquainted with it a good experience?

Well, with the pedigree of its musicians it's certainly still listenable with plenty of psychedelic stylings - from folk rock through raga rock to guitar freak outs - that often work really well, with "Capricorn - The Uncapricious Climber" standing out for me with its mysterious vibe.

In the end, what really stops this album from being an A++ grade slab of psychedelia are the spoken passages - "478.5 is the wavelength of blue". A fascinating fact - if it is a fact - but not something I really want to hear on a record. The poetry really places the album firmly in the late 1960s, when it mattered far more what star sign you were born under. 

That said, I enjoyed revisiting the album and I won't wait fifty odd years to listen to it again. In fact, it's been played a few times here over the past couple of days. If you can screen out the spoken passages, it's really very good - the playing is great and the early use of Moog shows how effective a synth can be when used as an added musical texture.

So, a bit of a curio and very much of its time, but eminently listenable - but see what you think!

Oh, and like the sleeve says, play it in the dark, man...

Samplin’ The Past

A guest post from Koen - last heard of with a dose of Covid. Here's hoping for a speedy recovery!

In hindsight, the first form of sampling I probably heard was Buchanan & Goodman’s wonderful “The Flying Saucer” (1956), which still is worth hearing.

Many, many years later I was a regular buyer of UNCUT magazine with their Unconditionally Guaranteed CDs, a great way to keep in touch with new and old music.
The June 1999 edition featured a Moby track that sounded very different from anything he did before. 

Moby’s dance music had no appeal to me at all, but ‘Natural Blues’ certainly did!
A little later I found that he had sampled Vera Hall’s Trouble So Hard, from a 1937 recording by American folklorist Alan Lomax. Apparently, Moby first came across this song on the Lomax collection Alabama: From Lullabies to Blues.

However, the way Moby ‘discovered’ that Lomax collection is another intriguing story This track sort of introduced me to Alan Lomax and his enormous archive of field recordings.

One year later, UNCUT’s June 2000 edition featured St Germain’s Sure Thing on its CD.
Having John Lee Hooker’s Harry's Philosophy (from The Hot Spot Soundtrack, 1990) being part of it turned it into a great track imho. Plus as a bonus, it also had that Vera Hall song!

By now the possibilities of sampling began to look interesting.

Break In Services

During an annual Netherlands visit, I stumbled upon a cheap Rounder sampler: Presenting the Alan Lomax Collection which (surprise, surprise) got added to my goodies to take back home. Besides 12 fascinating recordings from the past, the cover mentioned that these were the originals from the Tangle Eye remix…

Tangle what? Never heard of it, but a quick Google search revealed Alan Lomax's Southern Journey Remixed (on Zoë Records, part of Rounder!), with some positive reviews as well.
I found one track as an mp3 somewhere, really liked what I heard, and requested assistance from a musical friend.

The postal services didn’t let me down (in this part of the world it happens from time to time) but nicely delivered the CD in question to our home address.

Very listenable indeed, the emphasis is more on the original vocal tracks than anything else, combined with present-day musicians (incl. Meters bassist George Porter, Jr., bluesman Corey Harris, banjo player Tony Trischka, guitarist Jeff Raines, and trombonist Delfeayo Marsalis) doing the backing tracks, produced by Scott Billington and Steve Reynolds.
This stayed a one-off project as far as I know.

What is your opinion about combining the past and the present in this way?
Do you have any favorites?

Looking forward to hearing from you all again!

Rewards: Right out of the oven rips of both above-mentioned CDs!

In praise of Free (and Andy Fraser!)

Arriving on the scene a little too late for inclusion in the 1960s ‘British Blues Boom’...

...Free had a lot in common with the movement initially, especially in terms of their early blues covers set material, and were named by the late, great Alexis Korner – sort of. He suggested ‘Free at Last’, which was soon shortened to ‘Free’.

What a lot of people don’t realise, is how young Free were when they started playing together.

Lead singer Paul Rodgers and drummer Simon Kirke were both 18, guitarist Paul Kossoff was 16 and bassist and keyboard player Andy Fraser only 15.

Within 6 months they’d recorded their first album ‘Tons of Sobs’ which was very blues based, but showed their funky side: the quality which made the band stand out amongst the rather led-den (sic) groove that many other hard blues/rock bands seemed to fall into.

There must have been real chemistry at work when they got together .

Rodgers on lead vocals had – still has – an amazing voice. With Free he took centre stage and used the mic stand to great effect as he strutted about and indulged in some proper groin-thrusting.

Kossoff on guitar had a great Les Paul/Marshall sound and he played using a very distinctive vibrato. Whilst he didn’t stray too far from the pentatonics, he used them melodically and his rhythm playing was sparse, with some interesting chords using the open strings together with fretted ones. No power chord thrashing for Kossoff!

Fraser on bass was amazing. Using a short scale Gibson bass, he played a heady combination of melodic lines on the upper frets and heavy root notes on the bottom ones. Above all, he left spaces in his bass lines, reminiscent of reggae and funk bass styles, and really helped let the music breathe. 

Making up the quartet was drummer Kirke who always kept it simple, powerful and exciting. Using an extremely small kit – snare, kick, two toms, ride and crash cymbals and hi-hat – he could be almost jazzy at times, which tied in well with Fraser’s syncopated and often spare bass lines to create a rhythm section that floated and skipped but never plodded.

The old adage ‘the whole is greater than the sum of its parts’ applies to Free very, very well. The combination of the instruments and Rodger’s charismatic stage presence and soulful vocals produced a sound that was intense, but never bludgeoning, and their use of dynamics was second to none, with the band dropping back when necessary and then cranking it up in complete contrast.

Not only was the band a musician’s delight, but in their glory days, they were a pop phenomenon, too. Live recordings at the time of ‘Alright Now’ (their biggest hit) reveal teenage girls screaming in the same way that the Beatles had once experienced and the band became teen magazine pin ups.

Although the band had a US hit with "Alright Now", and toured there, most of their popularity and success was restricted to the UK and European market with barely a handful of hit singles and as many hit albums. Not really all that much of a recorded legacy for a band who are still fondly remembered and highly regarded.

So, what of the four band members today?

Rodgers went on to form Bad Company with drummer Kirk, ex-King Crimson bassist Boz Burrell and ex-Mott the Hoople guitarist Mick Ralphs. He then went solo, joined Queen (a disaster in my opinion; as fine a singer as he is, he’s no Freddie Mercury) and performed with Bad Co on various reunion tours. He’s still a force to be reckoned with, solo, but has never regained the success he once had.

Kossoff left Free in a heroin haze. His playing and behaviour became so erratic that he was sacked. He went on to form Back Street Crawler, but then died of a drug related heart attack at the age of 25. A total waste of a great talent.

After Bad Co, Kirke didn’t do too much until their eventual reunion gigs, although today he’s on the Grammy awards committee and still plays in bands around the Manhattan NY area.

Frazer possibly had the most interesting post-Free career. When Free broke up, he went on to form the underrated ‘Sharks’, and ‘The Andy Fraser Band’, and then embarked on a bizarre but pioneering series of projects that culminated in the formation of the McTrax record label, although it didn't exactly set the world alight. Fraser died in 2015 at his home in California of a heart attack.

Nothing that they went on to do, however, comes anywhere near approaching the magnificence that was Free, and that quality stands out best in a live setting.

Fortunately, video footage still exists to illustrate this and there’s one show in particular that captures the band perfectly. It was produced by Granada TV and shows the band in a television studio with a fair-sized and quietly appreciative audience. It’s well-shot, with good sound and excellent picture quality, and the cameramen made sure that they gave equal attention to all four players.

Rodgers moves about like some randy cockerel, Kirke plays his tiny kit with his typical high arm movements, and Kossoff gurns a lot (although I think he means it) and plays some beautifully understated guitar.

However, it’s Fraser who really shines, as far as I’m concerned.

His body movements and playing epitomise total involvement as he rocks back on one foot and alternately soars over and rumbles under the rest of the band. There’s such deep joy in his playing and I’m certain that he’s not putting on a show. He’s just happy playing what he’s playing, who he’s with and the zone that he’s in.

In many ways, Free was the perfect rock combo, and showed that with just basic vocals, guitar, bass and drums, hard rock didn't have to steamroller its audience relentlessly - sometimes the foot could ease off on the throttle.

Just answer the simple question below and get some Free goodies!

I heard Sonny Boy blow!

One of the most interesting characters in blues history...

...and one who epitomises everything I find engrossing about it, is Sonny Boy Williamson. To be exact, Sonny Boy Williamson II. Actually, to be even more exact, Aleck or Alex or Willie or Rice Miller, or Willie Ford. (When I say exact, I mean as exact as Sonny Boy II cared to be about himself…)

He was also known variously as Sonny Boy Williams, Willie Williamson, Little Boy Blue, Harmonica Blowin' Slim, The Goat and Footsie. 

Footsie?

However, I hear you ask, if Aleck was known as Sonny Boy Williamson II, was there ever a Sonny Boy Williamson I? Yes, there certainly was a Sonny Boy the First and he was born John Lee Curtis Williamson in 1914, dying in 1948.

Like Sonny Boy II, Sonny Boy I was a harp player and singer who pioneered the instrument as a solo player. He had a great deal of success with his many recordings and kept such illustrious company as Muddy Waters throughout his relatively short professional life.

So, Sonny Boy I and II were both significant harp players and singers, but they weren’t even remotely related.

Why then did Sonny Boy II ‘borrow’ Sonny Boy I’s stage name?

Well, if you thought “money?”, then you’ve guessed right.

As this very informative article puts it:

By the early ’40s, he was the star of KFFA`s King Biscuit Time, the first live blues radio show to hit the American airwaves. As one of the major ruses to occur in blues history, his sponsor - the Interstate Grocery Company - felt they could push more sacks of their King Biscuit Flour with Miller posing as Chicago harmonica star John Lee “Sonny Boy” Williamson.

It was a rather clumsy deception but it obviously worked, as the name stuck with Miller and there don’t seem to have been any lawsuits. Although the Insterstate Grocery Company didn’t actually pay him much, they allowed him to plug his gigs on air and this helped push up his earnings by getting bigger crowds to see him.

Indeed, such ruses involving aliases and stage names weren’t uncommon, with luminaries like the late, great John Lee Hooker recording for different record companies under a variety of names early on in his career.

[As well as his own name, he recorded under the names of Texas Slim, Delta John, Birmingham Sam and his Magic Guitar, Johnny Williams, The Boogie Man, Johnny Lee (getting slightly less imaginative now), John Lee, and even John Lee Booker and John Lee Cooker. The latter two names must have taken several hours to think up…]

Anyway, to his grave, Sonny Boy II dubbed himself the ‘real Sonny Boy Williamson’, in spite of appropriating Sonny Boy I’s stage name whilst #1 was at the height of his career.

It probably helped both men that Sonny Boy #2 didn’t start recording until after #1 was dead and buried, although his recording career didn’t exactly set the world alight. In fact, somewhat ironically, it wasn’t until his contract was sold on to Checker Records – a subsidiary of the famous Chess Records Company – because he was so difficult to work with, that he started to get blues chart success.

Recording with the likes of Elmore James, Willie Dixon and Robert Lockwood Jr, Sonny Boy II wrote and released many songs which have since become blues standards – all marked by witty, sometimes desolate lyrics, a quavering delivery and sharp piercing harp lines. Notable successes include ‘Eyesight to the Blind’, ‘Help Me’, ‘Checkin’ up on my Baby’, Nine Below Zero’, ‘Don’t Start me to Talkin’’ and ‘Bring it on Home’, the latter covered by Led Zeppelin on their second album, but attributed to Page and Plant…

Sonny Boy II was a real showman. He’d play with the harp inside his mouth and even with his nose.

He spent a lot of time in Europe towards the end of his career - in common with many of his contemporaries. Indeed, at one stage he appears to have been thinking about applying for UK citizenship, and even wrote a song about it.

It wasn't just a distinctive vocal and harp style that Sonny Boy Williamson II worked on. Over the years, Williamson had acquired a rather eccentric image, sporting a checkerboard suit, a bowler hat (occasionally a beret), a furled umbrella and a briefcase which held his harps and a bottle of whiskey.

And yes, Sonny Boy #2 liked a drink…in fact, as well as being a drinker, he was a gambler,  an occasional brawler (wiry, but 6 feet 2 inches tall and often with a straight razor to hand, although he was no Little Walter!) and a ladies man, with a wicked sense of humour,

He was backed by some of the early UK beat groups when he toured there and dubbed the Animals the ‘Mammimals’ and, with reference to the Yardbirds, he had this to say:

“These British want to play the blues so bad…and they play the blues so bad!”

One of the more amusing stories about his visits to the UK is that he once set fire to his hotel room, whilst trying to cook a rabbit in a coffee percolator. True? We'll never know.

He died in 1965 soon after he returned to the US after recording and extensive gigging in the UK, but even his gravestone is somewhat ambivalent – not about his name, but about the year of his birth. Although it states 1908, Sonny Boy #2 claimed it was 1897 or 1899, although census evidence suggests it was 1912.

If it was 1912, as seems most likely, then 53 years of hard living had certainly taken their toll!

However, amongst all the hard living and roguish antics, Sonny Boy II was generous when it came to helping his fellow players. He mentored a young Howlin’ Wolf – his brother-in-law – and also helped spread the word about a guitarist and singer who went on to be known as BB King.

So, Sonny Boy II was many things throughout his life, some of them of his own invention, but his one constant was his music. The more you dig into his life story, the more you find that much of what he claimed wasn't entirely truthful, but it was told in such a cohesive manner, with truth and deceit so carefully entwined, that it was never questioned. However, doubts are now being raised and there's a fascinating article here that exposes some of Miller's subterfuge. It could well be that the true story of his life and career turns out to be even more interesting and convoluted than the one he left us with.

To get some Sonny Boy #2 goodies, just answer the simple question below...

Sounds & Visions

A short but sweet guest post from Koen...

 

Early 1985, in Bangkok, as a bunch of grubby backpackers (incl. yours truly) are heading towards the Goethe Institute for the free screening in the garden(!) of ‘Paris, Texas’, a new Wim Wenders movie.

 

All of us are massively impressed by the combination of the visuals and Ry Cooder’s guitar work, although personally, I found the story less compelling.

When I finally returned home months later one of the first things I did was find the soundtrack album! All tracks were specially composed for this film, but even when old songs are used for soundtracks they can be incredibly effective.

Remember ‘The Big Chill’? A great collection of old Motown and assorted hits really enhanced the movie.

 

Another example is ‘Trainspotting’, I also saw this one in Bangkok at an international film festival and thought it was hilarious to be introduced by the British ambassador as a great example of English culture, a movie about mainly Scottish heroin addicts - thank God it was subtitled! But the use of Lou Reed’s Perfect Day in this grimy epic was outstanding.

 

 

A personal favorite original soundtrack is Hans Zimmer’s ‘Black Hawk Down’, an excellent fusion of traditional North African & Middle Eastern music meeting the late 20th century with elements of techno. For this film, Zimmer put together a one-off BHD (kind of jam) Band which included himself on keyboards, guitarists Michael Brook & Heitor Pereira, and string players Craig Eastman and Martin Tillman, all to great effect in providing a highly effective background for this failed Mogadishu mission by UN peacekeeping personnel in 1993.

 

Please tell us something about your favorite soundtrack and why it made such an impression on you.

As a reward, I have two freshly ripped John Lurie-related soundtracks for you!

 

Accidents with Thunderclap Newman

‘One hit wonders...'

...are an interesting aspect of pop and rock music and Wikipedia has a very informative entry on the subject here.

However, in some cases, it’s not the success that such acts achieved that’s musically significant and of lasting merit, but their failures.

Thunderclap Newman - the subject of this screed – are best known for their hit ‘Something in the Air’.

This was a so-so piece of hippy revolution fluff that dominated the UK charts in the summer of 1969 and reached #1.

The band was probably more interesting than their big hit suggested, based as it was around trad jazzer Andrew ‘Thunderclap’ Newman on piano, John ‘Speedy’ Keen on vocals, guitar and drums and Jimmy McCullough (who was only 15 at the time - and looked it!) on lead guitar.

With the aid of a powerful friend – no less than Pete Townshend of the Who – Newman and McCullough were brought in to help Keen record the hit. The original idea was for Townshend to mentor each of the three and help with their own individual projects. However, to save time, one project only emerged – the band named after the oddball pianist Thunderclap Newman.

So, ‘Something in the Air’ came and went and the inevitable album was released on the back of the hit – ‘Hollywood Dream’.

Now, ‘Dream’ is an OK album, but it contains one diamond in the rough – a sprawling 9 minute track called ‘Accidents’.

This was totally rejigged, re-recorded, issued as a 4 minute single and promoted as the follow-up to ‘Something in the Air’. It peaked at a disappointing #46 in the UK.

I say disappointing because the single version is one of my favourite songs ever and a small and perfect but woefully neglected gem.

Dealing as it does with children disappearing through accidents, it was described thusly by critic Nathan Morley:

One would have to listen to Wagner in a funeral parlour for something even more morbid than Thunderclap Newman’s ‘Accidents’...

However, Morley shares my love for the song:

…which chronicles the deaths of various hapless children who all meet a very nasty end – Poor Mary falls in a river whilst waiting for the Queen to sail by and little Johnny is killed by a speeding car. That said – the song, orchestration and performance are simply brilliant. It is captivating and without doubt their best recording.

However, set against a somewhat jaunty backdrop with some nice guitar from McCullough and some well-scored brass, woodwind and strings, drumming that sounds like Paul McCartney to me and some remarkably effective acoustic rhythm guitar, its somewhat depressing but poignant message is somehow leavened by the almost singalong and upbeat sound.

It’s one of those pop songs that are quintessentially English – like the Kinks’ ‘Autumn Almanac’ – and, like Ray Davies’ creation, is almost like a little operetta with various movements all leading to a full-blown coda.

I think another thing that makes ‘Accidents’ very special to me is that I can remember exactly when and where I was when I first heard it.

Somehow, I’d blagged a gardening job for my English teacher during the winter and early spring of 1969/70, in my last year at school before I took my ‘A’ Levels.

It was a Saturday morning and I was re-digging a flower border (a tedious and unpleasant job, as he owned a very big and very smelly dog which used to shit all over the garden like an incontinent elephant) and I had my transistor radio tuned to the Kenny Everett Show.

Everett always had great taste – especially for good melodic pop stuff – and he really raved about the track before he played it.

Well, it knocked my socks right off and I tried to buy it as soon as I could, but with no luck.

It wasn’t until very much later that I heard it again, when a friend lent me a CD reissue of ‘Hollywood Dream’ and I was able to hear the single version of ‘Accidents’ once more (a bonus track on the CD reissue) and also the 9 minute album version.

You’d have thought that maybe such a long wait - several decades - could have ended in disappointment.but it didn’t and the track has become very precious to me.

So, what happened to the band?

Well, Andrew Newman kept on gigging with the band as the only original member until he passed in 2016, surviving the younger Speedy Keen by 14 years, and Jimmy McCullough died of a heart attack way back in 1979, following a heroin overdose just after he left Wings – yes, that Wings.

What's more, Kenny Everett’s dead and my old English teacher and his smelly dog are too.

Plus we've still got children disappearing.

Perhaps Morley was right about the track reaching peak morbid after all...

Win the bonus track version of the album by answering the dead easy question in the comments below.

Unspeakable Chat GPT

Another guest post from Koen. If anyone else fancies writing one, fill yer boots!

 

Recently I was contemplating doing a post on Hal Willner (which still might happen) and noticed one of his frequent collaborators was guitarist Bill Frisell (*).

 

Bill (not with Hal Willner) 

When I just started building a CD collection I got an ECM collection featuring Bill and that was (& still is) highly listenable.

But once Bill started exploring Americana he really got my attention and when I managed to get my hands on a promo edition of his 2004 Unspeakable album, wow, brilliant! On this particular album, Hal  Willner has a prominent role, not only as a producer but also as a musician: on turntables! No scratching, but he provides occasionally obscure samples which steer the album to different heights!

 

 

I dug around for some reviews and related stuff but also decided to give Chat GPT a try and the results were remarkable, to say the least.

Nowadays the writing resembles Wikipedia texts, grammatically correct, rather bland, and (you would expect!) factual…

This was quite an eye-opener, have a look:
1. Bill Frisell's album "Unspeakable," which was released in 2004, was produced by Hal Willner and features turntable contributions from DJ Logic. The turntables are used throughout the album to provide scratching and other effects, adding an element of hip-hop and electronic music to the otherwise acoustic sound of Frisell's guitar. The use of turntables was a departure from Frisell's previous albums, and it helped to create a unique sonic landscape for the music.
Uh.., DJ Logic doesn’t perform on this album, and neither is there any scratching!

2. The album features a range of musical styles, including jazz, folk, and experimental music, and includes collaborations with several musicians, such as Viktor Krauss and Greg Leisz.
Uh.., not on this album!

3. Bill Frisell's album "Unspeakable" incorporates various samples throughout its tracks, adding to the album's eclectic sound. Here are a few examples of samples used on the album:
1. The track "1968" includes a sample of a speech by civil rights activist Stokely Carmichael.
2. The track "Baba Drame" features a sample of West African music, which was recorded by Frisell during a trip to Mali.
3. The track "Unspeakable" incorporates a sample of a recording of a Native American chant.
4. The track "Out of Body" includes a sample of a NASA recording of radio signals from outer space.
These samples, along with the use of turntables and other electronic effects, give "Unspeakable" a unique and innovative sound that blends a range of musical styles and influences.
Uh.., 1968 has no samples whatsoever! The songs mentioned in 2-4 are not even on this album…

4. (Chat GPT gave me a new option) One example of a sample used on the album is the spoken word sample from the movie "The Manchurian Candidate" on the track "1968." The sample features a monologue by the character Raymond Shaw, played by actor Laurence Harvey, discussing the power of suggestion and manipulation.
Uh.., sounds impressive but it's total rubbish!

After that, I gave up on Chat GPT…
Despite all that nonsense Unspeakable is a great album and to get a freshly ripped copy please let us know if you’re familiar with Bill and what’s your favorite album/track(s).
(*) https://www.allaboutjazz.com/bill-frisell-40-years-friendship-music-mischief-hal-willner

I searched for a decent photo of Bill & Hal together but strangely enough can't find anything...